Learning from Australia's Gold Coast Rapid Transit Project

Mike Francis June 9, 2012 at 10:51 pm

George, what "green" source of power would provide electricity for the light rail without generating the noxious gasses you so deplore? Your Queensland example has different goals than the CCT one of which is "city building." In MC people are trying to get from point A to point B not promote the development of a city.

Lezlie Crosswhite June 11, 2012 at 03:33 pm

Oh, I think the MoCo council and Johns Hopkins are definitely trying to develop a city -- Science City! Without the CCT, Science City can't be built out the way JHU wants it to be -- and the way that the neighbors DON'T want it to be.

Donna Baron (Scale-it-back.com) June 14, 2012 at 02:51 pm

Lezlie is right. The CCT is being used as the trigger for massive amounts of proposed commercial development. It is expected to carry only about 15% of the tens of thousands of newcomers, leaving 85% of them in their cars on the roads.
In order to accommodate all of the additional cars, roads will be widened to six- and eight-lanes with multilevel highway interchanges. And, even after all of the proposed infrastructure, including the CCT, has been built the traffic on Great Seneca Highway, now posted at 50 mph, is expected to "move" at an average of 9-11 mph.

Lezlie Crosswhite June 14, 2012 at 03:20 pm

And that projection was from a study done by the Maryland Transit Authority! The scary thing is the county council and Johns Hopkins think that everyone who drives there is just going to have to suck it up. They aren't offering any sort of recourse at all.
Nor is Johns Hopkins paying for any of these road widenings and "improvements". Nope, that's for we taxpayers to do. So not only do we have to pay for the "improvements" we have to sit in the traffic that the "improvements" do very little to alleviate. All because the county council and the planning department rolled over for Johns Hopkins -- as they roll over for all developers, it seems.

jag June 14, 2012 at 03:40 pm

It's hilarious. Half the people on this site complain about how NoVa is eating our lunch/we're not growing anywhere near fast enough to keep up and the other half of people on here whine any time the county grows at all. There's certainly no pleasing everyone.
Anyways, isn't the current "Science City" plan already scaled down drastically? Aren't there thousands of residential units planned? It's not intellectually dishonest to claim that all those people will drive? There's no options in the universe other than the CCT and driving? Re: driving, obviously the primary roads are 270 and 370. This area is ripe for increased density, otherwise spending many billions of dollars on said roads makes zero sense. Gaithersburg has been under-performing for as long as I can remember. It's about time the county breaths some life and jobs into the area.

MocoLoco June 14, 2012 at 04:03 pm

This blog is ridiculously superficial and substance-free. The comments provide more reasoning and support than the main blog entry.

Theresa Defino June 14, 2012 at 04:24 pm

from linked in: George Barsky
Independent Transportation/Trucking/Railroad Professional Washington D.C. Metro Area Transportation/Trucking/Railroad

Donna Baron (Scale-it-back.com) June 14, 2012 at 04:27 pm

The master plan proposed a total of 20 million sq ft of commercial space and 9,000 residential units in the less than one and a half square mile area.
The County Council, in a grand flair of compromise, cut the commercial capacity to 17.5 million sq ft of and left the residential at 9,000 units. A master plan is only expected to build out 75% of the space allowed during the life of the plan. So, the grand compromise was only one-half of the amount that would normally NOT be built during the life of the plan. In other words, there was no compromise on the capacity of the plan. And to repeat what we have said during the past five years, we support the sensible expansion of hospital and the biotechs. We know that development will take place. However, the scale of this plan, if built out, will completely overwhelm the area. For more than you ever wanted to know about the Great Seneca Science Corridor Master Plan and the Science City, please see www.scale-it-back.com

Lezlie Crosswhite June 14, 2012 at 04:35 pm

@jag, I wish it were hilarious. There is nothing wrong with growing the county, but it can't be at the expense of the people who already live in that area.
Why not grow the county on the east side, where there is such a huge differential between jobs and residents? Why not grow the county nearer already existing public transportation? Science City is 5 miles away from Shady Grove metro. The neighborhoods surrounding Science City on all sides are relentlessly suburban and were designed that way. They are car oriented and will remain so. Yes, the current science city plan is somewhat scaled down from the original JHU dream. Part of the reason for that is the joint letter written by Maryland Dept. of Transportation, the State Highway Administration, Maryland Transit Administration in Sept. 2009. You can find it here: http://www.scale-it-back.com/files/Transportation_letter_to_Phil_Andrews_sept_15.pdf Read the 6th, 7th, and 8th paragraph to get the gist. There are residential units planned BUT the projections of the county and state recognize that the employees at science city won't be able to afford to live in those residential units. So yes, most people who come to work at the science city will be driving from other areas. From Frederick and points north, from Silver Spring and points east, from Virginia. The traffic projections are straight from MTA. They're the ones predicting the gridlock on Great Seneca, Darnestown Rd., I-270, etc.

jag June 14, 2012 at 05:04 pm

@Donna, but the 17.5 million sqft will be built out over the course of DECADES, correct? Of course that'd "overwhelm the area" if all built at once, but of course that's not even remotely close to the current plan. The transportation infrastructure issues cited are real, but that's why billions have been and are slated to be spent on the issue (building the ICC, widening 270, etc.). I very much tend to agree with Lezlie (and probably you) that East County (near the FDA campus) or possibly around an underutilized metro station might make more sense for some or all of this development, but many of the comments on this article (specifically from "scale-it-back") are hyper-alarmist and do more to harm than good to the ends of having a reasonable debate. Obviously that's just my opinion and I wish you the best, but personally that's the reason why I haven't even bothered to click on your website.

Donna Baron (Scale-it-back.com) June 14, 2012 at 05:24 pm

Unfortunately, my figures are not alarmist even if they sound outrageous. They are directly from the master plan, the Council staff and the Planning Dept.
It was stated during a PHED committee meeting that even if the roads were widened to six- and eight-lanes, the multilevel twelve- to sixteen-lane interchanges were constructed and the CCT was built, the traffic on Great Seneca Highway would travel at an average speed of 9-11 mph. Great Seneca at that point would be six lanes, Key West would be eight lanes, Muddy Branch would be six lanes. There would be up to six two- and three-level highway interchanges that would twelve to sixteen lanes on Great Seneca. And another point worth noting. Royce Hanson, former Chair of the Planning Board was asked if the capacity for science-related jobs would be siphoned away from other parts of the county if the Science City was built. He said it would, for many years to come. But the weirdest part of all of this is that Steve Silverman said if the county required the Science City to be more than 30% science-related, the project would fail. The Council upped it to 40%. What world class science center is only 40% science-related? If the area will be buried in traffic, the rest of the county will suffer and the Science City is going to be 60% non Science-related, why is the county so hell-bent on making it happen? Because Johns Hopkins is a relentless real estate developer and they are driving the bus.

Jeff Hawkins June 14, 2012 at 05:43 pm

@Donna
Keep up the good fight Donna! Is there anything the average (below average) person can do to help?

Donna Baron (Scale-it-back.com) June 14, 2012 at 07:46 pm

Donna Baron (Scale-it-back.com)
Jeff, Johns Hopkins' massive proposed commercial office complex on Belward Farm for 15,000 people is the biggest potential problem. Elizabeth Banks sold Belward Farm to Hopkins for one-fifth of its value with the understanding that Hopkins would build a low impact academic campus on the farm. After Ms. Banks' death, Hopkins approached the County about rezoning the farm for much higher density and the County went along with the plan. Ms. Banks' family has filed suit against Johns Hopkins for breach of donor intent. The scheduling hearing for the trial will be on July 6 at the Circuit Court in Rockville. If the Judge rules in favor of the family, Hopkins will be forced to scale the development on the farm back to 1.4 million sq ft (approx. 5,000 people), instead of their proposed commercial office complex for 15,000 people. That would take quite a burden off the local roads. For more information on the family's effort to force Johns Hopkins to honor Elizabeth Banks' intentions, please see http://www.facebook.com/SaveBelwardFarm

Jacks June 17, 2012 at 03:57 am

No, Don't send them to east county. This area was congested before Shady Grove was even born and has some of the highest residential density in the State. The jobs/housing imbalance is a complete myth perpetuated by the developers. Recent reports show a 1 to 1 on residents and jobs and Silver Spring is home to many corporations and gov't agencies.

Lezlie Crosswhite June 17, 2012 at 01:18 pm

@Jacks, I always wondered about that, but then a few years ago my commute put me on the north side of 495 during morning rush hour. On the top of the loop, there were significantly more cars travelling from the east side of the loop to the west side during morning rush. I was going west to east and was always astonished how there was comparatively little traffic going west to east, and I almost never had to go below 40 mph.
If there isn't a big jobs/housing imbalance, then why is there such a big difference in traffic patterns? Is it all from commuters coming south on 95 and then joining the beltway? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.