What has Council Member Piotr done to “restore relationships that have been badly tarnished in recent years??” He has been on the council for 2 years. Each member on the council is responsible for what Piotr is eluding.

I personally support the "expansion of the public works and parks maintenance complex on Gude Drive" because it has been planned for many years. I believe the Public Works department has more employees and more services that are provided to the city. The old post renovation could have waited. There should have been a long-range plan for it. The Federal Government had good reasons to give up that property. The property is too small for the City Police Department.

There are more cities older than Rockville that have infrastructure issues. Of course getting contracts to replace our pipes on a yearly schedule is easier than dealing with emergency repairs. Those emergencies can continue despite the plan to replace the pipes. But we all pay the price to be the leading city.

Why are more emphases not on what burdens the Rockville citizens face? My contributions are going to be comments on what I believe needs to change in Rockville. I don't want more taxes collected from me.

I still find what I pay for my refuse removal high. Most of the times my bins are not full and I put them on the curb every second week. More services are cut or cost more money. Who is getting the raises in salaries? It certainly isn’t the retirees.

Brigitta,

The Council defers to the Mayor with respect to conducting diplomacy on behalf of the City. It would not be appropriate for members of the Council to go behind the Mayor’s back.

With respect to taxes: I hear you. As I think you know, I supported maintaining a $100 home owner’s tax credit in next year’s budget, while Mayor Marcuccio opposed it. She prevailed. As a result, the property tax on your home will increase next year by $100.

Councilmember Gajewski has been on the council since 2007, not 2009, and he will be a fine mayor and bring much needed leadership and vision to the city and not simply be someone who says "no," often without reason. The expansion of the police department IS part of a long-range plan and desperately needed (which has unanimous mayor-council support and is not a political issue). The city was fortunate to receive the property for only $1, I believe, which helps taxpayers not spend as much money as they usually would for such projects. The federal government has a lot of surplus property, which does not reflect poorly on the worthiness of the property. The current police department is severely overcrowded and has no space to accommodate citizens other than the lobby, for example.

I am following the reports about our Mayoral candidates with interest.

I am particularly interested to listen to the candidates regarding the Rockville Pike Plan. I've read the plan and review the conceptual maps, and I think the plan represents a really good visioning for what Rockville Pike could and should become. What has really worked in Rockville Town Square and at King Farm would be continued. Transit is the focus. It's well-situates growth near the transit and in relation to other planned growth to the north and south. Basically, I'm an advocate of it. It's not that it couldn't be improved, but in my eyes, it's a good plan. I am liking what I hear from Councilman Gajewski on the plan.

There are a few other issues on which I agree with the Councilman. Notably, perhaps, the APFO and the admirable idea of excluding affordable housing projects or developments from parts of the ordinance.

However, there are some concerns too. I am surprised to hear Mr. Gajewski bring up the Corridor Cities Transitway and the notion of building cooperation and respect where some relationships may be tarnished, as I viewed his support of the idea of questioning the right-of-way for the transit project in King Farm as pretty disruptive, and probably irritating to state and local partners who'd heard differently from Rockville on planning and endorsement votes before. However, I like the notion of repairing those tarnished relationships--just not sure if the Countilman's actions always reinforce that.

I agree about Redgate. I agree about needing good leadership and strong reasoning for Council decisions.

But the one major thing where I have to give the Mayor some real props is regarding our city manager and the vote on his contract. I completely support the mayor's vote. I have met Mr. Ullery, and while I do believe he is competent and smart, I have the impression that he runs the city like he is its King. He's been personally pompous in my presence, and I don't like him. He works for us. Some humility and respect is needed from him, and I really liked it two years ago when the Mayor and other Council candidates discussed the need to the City Manager and staff to give more options to Council in presenting Council agendas and information, and to operate less as the boss of everyone, and more as the person carrying out or executing the wishes of Mayor and Council. I also know employees of the city who, frankly, operate somewhat in fear of the man. He can be a blowhard, apparently. I like strong leadership, but it indicates to me that there is a real problem when leadership is disrespectful, pompous, or even threatening. I've seen or heard evidence of all three.

So, I've put some of my thoughts and concerns out there. I sure hope the candidates will discuss them.

Good night!

Doug,
Thanks for your insight. I have had a different opinion based on my obsevations and dealings with the City Manager. For past year, I seved on the M & C Finanace & Budget Task Force. The Policy Subcommittee met with him and his senior staff several times to discuss significant policy and budget questionsin a fairly charged political environment . Mr. Ullery was always respectful even when he disagreed with some of our assertions.

In reality, the City Manager is in a difficult position when trying to advise the M & C. In essence, he has to walk softly but carry a big stick especially when trying to encourage the M & C on a policy and budget issues. Unfortunately, there are 5 separate voices on the Council that he must try to accomodate. Like the CEO of a major corporation, the City Manager has to know when to push and when to pull based on his knowledge and experience. He is hired to play this role since the M & C are part-time legislators who need the Managers's expertise and occasional cajoling. They are not paid well to be wall-flowers.

Theresa, please send me the long-range plan of the police department you menioned. I never read it. When was the plan written?

Jim, you are correct in your comments about the city manager. Too few people are willing to challenge the real issues and don't like confrontations. I have found past council members to simply agree with the city manager. Agreeing is easier than to state concrete different opinions. Staff can't question the city manger for fear of their jobs. Employees are reward to keep quiet. Check out who gets paid the higher salaries. I believe rocking the boat can bring real change.

http://www.rockvillemd.gov/rockvillereports/2011/mar/PostOffice

This is an article from the city's Rockville Reports, indicating the plan has been underway since 2005. I have personally heard the chief discuss the plans many times at WECA meetings and it has gone before the Planning Commission.

I think the decision to subsidize the golf course, which Piotr not support, is a major error given the economic climate in the City, County & State. If the Golf course was in trouble in the past, putting $500K a year into the golf course for the forseable future is a bad use of public funds. These funds could be used for many needed capital projects in the City that are underfunded or not funded at all. The Mayors and Council have to get serious in reducing spending and generating new revenues

Jim,

Were it only $500,000! Actually the RedGate golf course is in the FY12 general budget for $630,000 – and that is the NET LOSS, not the total cost of operating. This represents a little bit more than $10 per each man, woman and child in Rockville. Thus, for a family of four, living in a home, $40 of their property tax bill (and tax bills have just been delivered) goes to subsidize the golf course.

Surely, when there is another public golf course (Needwood) just a stone’s throw away, owned by Montgomery County, there is a better use for this tax money (or better yet, return the money to its rightful owners!). Yet, the RedGate course is our current Mayor’s funding priority!

Joe,

The Town Square was built before my appearance on the Council. I was only elected in 2007 when it was already up and running. Immediately I was confronted with the reality of a $30,000,000 garage debt. I did not ask for it. But it is today’s reality and we are dealing with it (no choice).

I am not sure where you get the idea that I hate golf. I like golf just fine. I used to caddy when I was a kid. Needwood is a great golf course right up the road, run by the County. We need to work together with the County so that we do not duplicate services. Do we really reed both of these golf courses? Does demand require that we maintain both?

I welcome for everyone to delve into the numbers. $630,000 is what is in this year’s budget (available on the City website) as the needed transfer of tax dollars to the golf fund. The number comes from the National Golf Foundation report, and it is not even the worst-case scenario number. The number is also based on real dollars spent in recent years; those, of course, are indisputable.

So the debate cannot be about what the real numbers are. The debate is whether it is appropriate to spend $630,000 per year to maintain a golf course. The Mayor, and apparently you as well Joe, argue that it is appropriate. I respect your opinion but I disagree.

Finally: the RedGate land is zoned “park.” Under this zoning when we close the golf course, we can let it grow wild or we can partner with any number of organizations to turn it into recreational use that would leave the space green, be used by many, many more Rockville residents and cost the City $0 in annual operating cost. Then the $630,000 annually can be put to better use, or better yet, returned to the taxpayer. The property tax bills just arrived. Rockville residents I talk to are stunned.

Joe,

If you want to engage in a discussion on the merits, please don’t invent assumptions.

The fact is that the land is zoned “park,” and I led the vote for that zoning.

With respect to cost: my claim is that there are non-profits that are willing to partner with the City to take on the costs (much smaller than the $630,000 to operate a golf course) of maintaining the property for other recreational use - baseball or soccer fields for example. The cost to the City in such a partnership could be $0 or something very close to it. No question we would save well over half a million dollars annually.

Meanwhile, I continue to pose the question: is there enough demand for golf play to maintain both Needwood and RedGate? And if not, then why exactly should each man, woman and child in Rockville pay $10 per year to maintain RedGate so that you can play on it?

Jeff,

So you and I disagree on the need to operate both Needwood and RedGate golf courses. Neither gets enough play; both are loosing money. To me, the responsible thing to do is to not duplicate programs that are already available.

Golf play is available at Needwood, very close to RedGate. There is also the Falls Road golf course nearby that is owned by the County and about ten more public golf courses in different parts of the County. From Rockville’s perspective it would make more sense to use the RedGate land for a recreation that will get more use and not cost nearly as much (golf courses are indeed very expensive to maintain). (By the way: you can see the full Rockville budget online at www.rockvillemd.gov.)

Joe,

When you talk about improvements to facilities like the senior center (or for that matter the golf course), you are talking about a one time capital expense. With RedGate the annual operating expense nets out at negative $630,000. That’s the problem. Rockville cannot sustain that without raising taxes. Surely there must be a less expensive recreation that can be offered on that property that more folks will use. As it were, only about 600-700 Rockville residents play at RedGate. So, another way of looking at this is that each of these is subsidized $1,000 per year for their RedGate play. Ouch!

Jeff,

You’re my kind of guy! I proposed a referendum when this issue first came up, but the RedGate community and their allies on the Council vehemently opposed this. Instead, the golf community advised that we engage the National Golf Foundation to study the golf operations. The Council followed this advice, spending $25,000 for the study. It is this study that shows continuing large deficits for RedGate, even in the best-case scenario.

The study does suggest that engaging an outside management company may improve financial results but not in a major way. It is this ray of hope, however, that has led the Council to put out a Request For Proposals from golf course management companies. The City is now evaluating these proposals and we will soon need to make a decision whether to move forward with one of the companies that has put in a proposal or to close the course.

Joe,

Yes, about 1,200 non-Rockville residents play the course and I understand how it is a great deal for them. And, of course, I appreciate that some spend money in Rockville. But even more people would come to Rockville for a recreation that is more popular (like kids sports, etc., for example), so arguing that all the golfers spend money here is a false argument.

I serve on the Rockville City Council; and for Rockville residents the golf course is a terrible drain. Would you pay $1,000 more per year to play at RedGate? Of course not! So, you are asking the Rockville taxpayer to pick up this tab. And Rockville, with many competing priorities (including not raising taxes on its residents!), cannot continue to do that.

Also please note: the numbers you cite are grossly incorrect. Please check the Rockville budget for the total annual revenue for RedGate. And note: the net loss is $630,000.

Joe,

I do appreciate your input. But I disagree with your analysis.

I embrace the comparison to Flat Stanley, a most lovable character! :)

Joe, do I understand correctly that you are not a Rockville resident?

Why should Rockville taxpayers continue subsidizing Red Gat? Joe, your tone and lack of facts aren't contributing anything of substance to this issue. The numbers are accurate and calling Councilmember Gajewski a clown only reflects poorly on you, not him.

Um, Joe, I am not Piotr. My name is Peter (easy enough to confuse with Piotr) Mork (a bit different from Gajewski).

In any event, as a Rockville resident, I don't mind paying small subsidies for cultural and recreational activities (e.g., Hometown Holidays is not free, but benefits a wide swath of Rockville and its neighbors). However, the cost of Red Gate per beneficiary strikes me as unsustainable.

The fact that one person spent some money in Rockville the same day he golfed is not a compelling argument. Certainly tourism dollars are welcome, but not if it costs the city $2 for every $1.

That's highly ironic, that a Bethesda resident would keep "fighting" for the city that I pay taxes to subsidize a golf course he uses. Your estimates of what you spent in the city during your recent visit do not hold up in this equation. I hate to break it to you, but all the studies have been done and the golf course simply isn't ever go to be self-supporting. I think you're going even further out of your league in this discussion than at first, and you said Piotr threw numbers around "like a clown." No, like a serious elected official who's been scrutinizing the books on this for literally four years, Joe. And there's no point in debating what you say--you're twisting statements he made to serve your own ends. So I think we're all done here.

I suggest you move back to Rockville, or start urging the county or the businesses in Bethesda to buy Red Gate.

I'm sorry if you find my comments vindictive. However, you asserted that you "moved from Rockville because of people like ... [me]."

In terms of education, the schools are run by the county, so you can get a great education anywhere in the county. In fact, my daughter has received an excellent education so far both in Rockville (at Lucy Barnsley) and in Takoma Park. But, I'm able to live in the excellent city of Rockville throughout.

Thank you for clarifying from where the $1.44M number arose. And, I agree that it's important to consider the larger economic ramifications.

It should be noted that extrapolation from a limited dataset has an incredibly high variance. Even if we accept the number as valid, the benefit to Rockville businesses should be based on the profit, not the gross revenue. So, a more fair comparison would be the profit (on the order of $0.144M per six months, again assuming that the initial estimate is accurate), which pales in comparison to the subsidy provided by the city.

I'm glad that you (and others) derive such enjoyment from the golf course. But, it's time to assess whether or not the city should play such an active role in a failing enterprise.

Joe Busch commented on:
VIDEO: Gajewski Stakes Claims As Challenger in Mayoral Race
Joe Busch commented on:
VIDEO: Gajewski Stakes Claims As Challenger in Mayoral Race

Sadly Theresa, I moved from Rockville because of people like you and Peter. I wanted my daughters to receive a good education …"

Where is the rest of this insulting statement? I have worked very hard to help the city of Rockville in many ways, as well as my childrens' schools for the past 10 years. You move to Bethesda and continue taking potshots at Rockville? Hmmm.

09:19 PM

Piotr:

Well it sounds like pretty much a done deal. If Redgate has got to go, i would sincerely hope something good can be used with the land. Your suggestions do sound interesting. Soccer fields, baseball fields, maybe and arena of some sort sounds good. Although this would take some major "leveling" of the land. Redgate has always been considered something of a "goat path".
I just don't want to residences "shoe horned" in there or any type of business. Good luck to you!

Jeff, this is far from a done deal. There are only two councilmembers looking to close RedGate...Mr. Gajewski and Mr. Pierzchala. The latter wants it to "return to nature", but never talks about the immediate loss of revenue and the yet-to-be determined significant cost to maintain 140 acres of open space. Mr. Gajewski has talked about shutting down RedGate since he was first elected 4 years ago, and always talked about the desire for a soccer stadium.
The Swim Center was in a worse financial state than RedGate, some 10 years ago, and a policy decision was made to take it out of an Enterprise Fund and put it in the General Fund. The same decision can be made today for the golf course, with a 3 to 2 vote, yet there is never serious discussion on it.
The City is currently reviewing proposals from companies that responded to an RFP to possibly outsource or lease management of the golf course. What is not discussed publicly by those looking to close RedGate is the millions of dollars in tax money that goes to subsidize every Parks and Recreation program, facility and venue. If you are interested in seeing RedGate continue life as a golf course, don't abandon the fight.

Peter, just looking at the services within P&R that charge fees, the amount subsidized is $6 million or 50%. The operating costs to provide these services in FY2011 was $12M. This doesn't include all activities that the City pays for but doesn't charge fees for, such as Hometown Holidays.
I refer you to the Matrix Consulting Report that was completed in March of this year and presented to the M&C. I hope this helps.

Piotr,
I'm glad to hear it's not a done deal. Sometimes there are things more important than just dollars and cents. You make a compelling argument based purely on monetary issues. I would submit to you that there are more reasons to keep Redgate. They mostly deal with pride, love of golf, it's a feather in the cap of Rockvillians.
If we want to base our decisions purely on a monetary basis.........well then half of Rockville will need to be torn down.
I fondly remember when Redgate opened, I think my friends and I were some of the first people to play the course.........it was truly an exciting time. The course has matured so much since then and is more beautiful than ever.

For more facts on Redgate that you won't learn elsewhere:

http://www.rocktrash.org/FAQS_Redgate.htm

Joe Jordan said:

What is not discussed publicly by those looking to close RedGate is the millions of dollars in tax money that goes to subsidize every Parks and Recreation program, facility and venue."

You know that is patently false. Here is a Gazette article from May 2011.

"Rockville rec centers don't cover costs

City judges facility financial success along different criteria

http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/05042011/rocknew205406_32533.php

"Together, the city's eight recreational facilities compile a $3.5 million annual deficit after accounting for the $4.1 million they bring in via user fees.

Data show that each trip to the city's golf course costs Rockville taxpayers the most — $11.73. The swim center comes closest to recovering its costs, at $1.34 per visit."

Do we really need to spent 10x the city subsidy for the golf course that we spend for the swim center? Far more residents than non-residents use the swim center, compared to the Red Gate. That's also a fact you know well.

Tim said: How does the financial support of the golf course compare with the pool, parks, city publishing staff, senior center, etc. and what is the cost per person it serves?

This is not a new question and as lawyers say, asked and answered. Please see the Gazette story I linked to above. Redgate has 10X the subsidy of the swim center and nothing else comes close.

FYI, from a "damned" non-resident, who is now afraid to go into the pool! But just wants to keep the accounting accurate...

If the pool is at $1.34 and the golf is at $11.73 the multiplier between the two is approximately 8.75...claiming a 10X multiplier effect exaggerates the divide by an amount almost equal to 11%....with errors of this magnitude it is recommended more research be done to check all the varibles used to establish the numbers....a healthy debate is a happy debate!

Mr. Fahey,

I do not know who you are quoting when you write: “Just because you ‘don't believe in the notion of a golf course’ doesn't mean it will not work.” But I certainly never uttered those words. Indeed, I do believe in the notion of a golf course. I simply do not support a plan that subsidizes the golf course with taxpayer dollars to the tune of nearly $3 million over the next five years.

The reality is that despite a thorough evidence gathering effort and analysis by the City finance department and the independent National Golf Foundation, no path has emerged that shows a possibility of the golf course not needing massive subsidies.

If a management company were to step in and assume the risk of losses, I, for one, would lend my whole hearted support to the deal. The golf course is a lovely facility. But it cannot continue to monopolize City resources given the large number of other needs that require attention.

It's good to see such a lively discussion. FYI, there is an op-ed on RedGate now posted on the home page:
http://rockville.patch.com/articles/two-thousand-redgate-fans-cant-be-wrong
Feel free to use it to start a new thread for comments.

Sean,
Thank you for the new link, where I will continue to follow the comments. These comments really do reflect the division of the citizens on how to solve the RedGate subsidy, which is so much lower from other costly programs that attract non-Rockville people.
RedGate is one of the big issues for this year's election because how the decision is made reminds citizens of previous councils’ decisions and the implications of those decisions. The choice is between current Mayor Phyllis Marcuccio and Councilmember Piotr Gajewski and how they will bring Rockville forward. Who do you support? From that support the arguments start.
Discussions on how this RedGate problem is to be resolved gets Rockville citizens’ attention. I will be listening and base my vote on the November 8 election on who I believe will represent me the best. This issue is only one of many. that concerns me.
Brigitta

Mr. G,
You said "I do not know who you are quoting when you write: ‘Just because you don't believe in the notion of a golf course.’" Those were your exact words. If you are deny writing these words, then you are being deceitful.

What bothers me about your comment and exact quote -- “you don’t believe in the notion of a golf course” -- is the assumption that RedGate is not a viable operation and destined to fail.

The implication is you would rather sell the RedGate off to the highest bidder in order to save the taxpayer the financial burden of supporting the golf course. This in an enormous asset to the citizens of Rockville, which should not be let go under any circumstances.

In my opinion, I want my leaders in Rockville to consider every avenue to allow RedGate to succeed. If you are too busy to consider some honest proposals to allow RedGate become successful again, then you should step aside and allow others to find a way to make one of the most valuable assets in Rockville, a success for our community. The path of least resistance might be your management style or sound good to the ears of a few, but I think the city deserves a leadership style that is more deserving of analytical thinking and consensus building approach to problem solving, rather than the tired old autocratic decision making approach that is made by a small group of people, which then subordinates citizens and others who have an opinion, and are thus excluded from the process.

Mr. Gajewski, You dismissed my point again that you said you don't believe in the notion that RedGate as a golf course. You've already made your mind up to shut down RedGate. Why not put together a task force to figure out how to get it back into the green?

Mr. Fahey:

Thanks for your comment, but you dismissed my point about there being other golf courses to choose from, and, by the way, all of them are struggling on some level.

As to your point why not put a task force together, I respond –“fooled me once, shame on you, fooled me twice, shame on me:”

Six years ago, the City put together a five-year plan to, as you put it, “get it [RedGate] back into the green.” The plan failed. Millions of dollars in losses later, the golf course is still failing. As a last chance, the City recently commissioned the National Golf Foundation to evaluate RedGate’s prospects. Careful reading of that evaluation leads to the inescapable conclusion that we have too many golf courses and too few golfers. Some courses must be closed.

With great options like the Needwood and Falls Road golf courses available to Rockville residents, it is irresponsible for the City of Rockville to continue to operate RedGate.

I understand that you are a supporter of the Mayor, but I very much appreciate our exchange on this issue. I hope that I have answered your questions. I understand that you have a different perspective.